From: Evan
Date: 12/20/02
Time: 7:10:50 PM
Remote Name: 199.181.165.170
Here is some more general info but taken out of its context on another board, For General Information Purposes only also because it seems to relate to some recent posts:
"Lotsa interesting information being exchanged. Although some of it is more about how rare it is to find good instruction these days.
That bit about "you cannot gain weight" by lifting weights? Not sure I see where that's coming from. Suffice to point out that of a man and a woman who are the same size, the man will weigh more far more often than not. Muscle tissue is much denser than fat. If you have equal 'volumes' of each, the muscle will weigh more.
Seems like the BrassBuddha has dealt out some facts, but that Todd hasn't a basis for relating them to anything in his background. That is not unusual. There needs to be some common ground before effective communication can take place, usually. I see where the blood getting into the general area of the cartilage would be effective: for a long time when you start out doing Chinese type, or let's say "classic" type training, since not even a lot of Chinese do it the old way anymore (but probably not for the reasons Todd would like to think); for a long time the chi goes where the blood goes. May I suggest that this is one of the reasons so many of those programs include high-rep movements that flood certain muscle masses with blood for long periods in a given training session?
It's easy to mistake weakness for strength...strength for weakness...Just an observation...Take from it what you will...
Another way to look at this "cutting edge/scientific outlook" debate might be the possibility that the old Chinese/Indians found some deep insights and profound knowledge about the body so cutting edge in its significance, for those who value such kinds of knowledge, that science hasn't yet caught up to it; that is, found a way to measure, probe, fold, spindle, mutilate...
I would side with coldblackiron on the assertion that the secrets are in the forms. The old masters didn't write down their most significant discoveries and teachings; they embodied them in the forms they passed down. The keys are in how to get those secrets out; but they are there nonetheless.
Other food, aside from those delicious tiger penises, for thought: the more sophisticated programs take a lot of time; the Iron Buddha strength set takes three years of 3 sessions per day to close that particular chi circuit down for use; other programs last longer to get their full benefits/effects: and the human body renews itself completely over the course of about 7 years, last time I read about it. The use of semen retention to renew & regrow brain cells (see Victor Mair's notes on that in his translation of the Tao Te Ching, very interesting). The importance and significance of specialized cleansing procedures in order to get success with certain programs (the Iron Vest requires taking herbs for the first 100 days primarily for cleansing, for best results). Lots and lots of nifty things about the body that the old Chinese knew and related to some of the very arcane findings they made about certain other aspects of physiology.
And here is a brief description of the Snake Turns Over copied from another board:
"It's an isotonically-based (movement under as much tension as you can get out of your muscles) exercise done in a fairly low (about 75% of your height or lower) horse stance (a bit tweaked from how you normally see horse stances done; toes are drawn in somewhat---kind of pigeon-toey---and you try to grip the floor with your feet rather than just stand there; takes some getting used to).
You make a big curl with the arm, drawing it back to the shoulder (fist is squeezed, with the thumb on top of the 'eye' of the rolled-up fingers, about as hard as you can squeeze throughout the duration of the exercise); then the fist is curled down and rotated out away from the body; the hand is opened without slacking the tension; there is a push-out down the centerline of the body; a circular "reach around" motion done with the extended hand (sorry; hard to describe with total accuracy, you really have to see it done) winding up back in a tight fist; there is a momentary pause of about a second; then the fist/arm is retracted to its starting position at the side, again under complete tension.
Then you do the other arm. That completes one repetition.
I must stress that the entire body is held in a 'flexed' state, like a bodybuilder doing a posing routine, sort of but with greater tension---you're trying to build strength, size, and power, not just show off---all during the exercise, and ALL breathing is done STRICTLY with the diaphragm. And there is some stimulation of the internal organs going on due to the horse stance. It doesn't work if you don't hold a strict horse stance for the entire exercise.
It is impossible, without having had experience with this kind of workout, to gauge what is going on for the person doing the work let alone what it is doing for them and how hard it is, if all you're doing is watching them. It must be experienced; and you really must have someone teach it to you and make the necessary corrections while you're learning it. I've seen people try to learn it from videotape and it just doesn't work well.
It is a totally different challenge from weight-training, and takes a degree of mental effort---sheer will, you might say---you just never encounter lifting weights no matter how hard you've ever trained with them. So it's a mistake to try to judge it if all you've ever done is weights or calisthenics and the like.
Now, that's just the Snake Turns Over from the standpoint of being an exercise; to get from it what it's intended to do, you must do it as a program. How this works is, you start at 10 reps the first day; then add one rep a day EVERY DAY until you get to 100 reps. Done at the proper speed, 100 reps takes about 35 minutes (so 10 reps takes about 3.5 minutes). And when you get to 100, you stay there for at least 10 days; then you subtract one rep each day until you get back down to 35, then stay at 35 if you want to keep all the benefits you built up while doing the program, which takes about 6 months to finish out.
Here's the kicker: it's pretty easy, once you learn it, for about the first month. By the time you get to about 50 reps, people are dropping out. Because YOU CANNOT SKIP ANY DAYS! Nor are you allowed, ever, to let off the tension while you're performing the exercise. 99.9 percent of everybody who tries this program won't get through it; yet it's a beginners level program.
It is both external and internal in its relatively simple design. There is the strength you build during the 6 months, plus the power, plus a gain in reflexive speed in the arms & hands, grip strength (for grasping etc); but there is also a definite internal benefit---yes, it has to do with chi---IF YOU DO THE ENTIRE PROGRAM THE WAY YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO IT. Which few who have the chance to learn it ever do. Sad, but certainly true."
Well, I have some training to get to today, so I'd better get to it. Best of luck to everybody. Sometimes though you only find what you intend to find; I hope we all do better than that here."
Hope it is of some interest to someone out there in Kung Fu Land. At the least maybe somebody will enjoy it on the basis of pure Entertainment Value?
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